earthquake, we must also identify long-term solutions to haiti's problem. haiti's food shortage severe, poor sanitation, lack of family planning and health care services, high unemployment and underdevelopment and also the lack of an agricultural sector. . these problems cannot be solved by emergency assistant alone. that's why working with chairman engel, many of us are working on my bill, h.r. 417, which is called the next steps for haiti for 2009. this would provide technical expertise and build human capacity to help haiti address its own problems. many haitian americans living in the united states have technical expertise in areas such as agriculture, education, health care and infrastructure and would like to return to haiti to assist their people.

my bill creates a mechanism to transfer this knowledge in order to meet the needs and the goals of haiti. beyond that we need to ensure that we find other innovative ways to build human capacity, such through education alex changes, programs like i have proposed and other members, the chirly chisholm act, now more than ever, haiti needs the support of its neighbor to the north. even as we deal with our own problems during these tough economic times, we must not turn a blind eye to the untold human suffering just off our shores. today we express our continued support for haiti, we stand in solidarity with the haitians and the haitian americans who have lost loved ones, with the united states citizens still trapped on the island. we stand in solidarity with the

rescue workers who have devoted their time and their treasure to help people they do not know. we stand hand in hand with them today and renew our continued support. our thoughts and our prayers go out to the haitian people and to all of those who have been affected durg this -- during this very trying time. we're asking everyone in our country to help in this assistance with haiti, of course individuals can go online, usaid.gov for more information. the administration is urging cash donations, there are many, many efforts taking place by our administration in this immediate emergency response in terms of a search and rescue effort as at this moment. so thank you again forgiving us the opportunity to speak tonight. i'd like now to turn the floor

over to congresswoman donna kristenson from the virgin islands who has led on many efforts as it relates to the caribbean, who knows haiti very, very well, who knows what natural disasters mean in terms of the dislocation and the tragic deaths that occur and what we have to do as a country to help respond to such a tragedy of this magnitude. thank you, congresswoman christensen. mrs. christensen: thank you, congresswoman and chairwoman lee, for your leadership of the caucus. through every event that we've had to deal with but especially for the way you have answered the call to action for the people of haiti and have called us to action as well within the caucus and within the congress. and, mr. speaker, i rise this evening with my colleagues, to express our deep sense of concern for the flight of the haitian people after the most devastating, people observed, in 200 or more years.

i want to again thank our chair lady and the past chairs of the congressional black caucus for the leadership that they have given other the years on behalf of the nation of haiti. i think we began this year or last year, we began this administration and this congress with hope for this country because of the promised engagement of president obama, he's demonstrated commitment of secretary of state hillary clinton and the work on the ground of former president clinton. but today after beginning to rebuild, after an onslaught of hurricanes in years past, this country, which is poor in resources but never has been poor in spirit, has been deve -- dealt a devastating blow once again. so on behalf of the people of the virgin islands who are our caribbean neighbors -- who are caribbean neighbors of the people of haiti, i express my condolences on the loss that has not yet been counted and for a sorrow not yet fully expressed

because of the shock at the sheer magnitude of the loss that affects us all as fellow human beings. i would like to express special concern for the haitian americans in my district and across the country who are worried and devastated as they try to get some word about the status of their loved ones back at home. mr. speaker, haiti has always had a special place in my heart and the hearts of all of us in the congressional black caucus as me and my colleagues have tried over several administrations to impress upon those administrations the need for assistance for people who crave economic opportunity, political stability and social advancement. many haitians have migrated to our shores and have made significant and magnificent contributions to our country. but many still yearn for a better future for the country they left behind. as we ponder on how to help haiti in this time of disaster, which has followed many other disasters, and the difficulty of

daily living for many of her residents, i hope that we will look at how we can help this neighbor to turn the corner and be more able to grow and develop in a way that can be helpful and more supportive to her citizens and help them to build for the future. haiti needs investment in infrastructure, assistance in health care and education and many of the things that we take for granted that would creater future for its people -- create that brighter future for its people. i commend president obama in his quick response to get first responders to help those, medical assistance to help those hurt and injured and military assistance to help maintain the stability that is necessary to make sure that those most in need get the help. and we know that his commitment and our commitment as members of congress is there for the long-term. mr. speaker, this disaster -- long term. mr. speaker, this disaster has touched the lives of rich and poor, educated and not, haitians and others and as we fellow

human beings care and stand ready to assist in this time of need, i join my colleagues tonight in the congressional black caucus and pledge our help in this disaster and in the long-term for their recovery. right now the need is for monetary donations to credible organizations like the international red cross and others operated by churches and not for profit organizations that work with the people of haiti on a regular basis. news reports last night told us that the people of haiti devastated by the disaster took to the streets last night and hugged and prayed while trying their best to dig their friends and neighbors out of the rubble. we want them to know that we join in their prayers for relief and mercy and will do what we can as neighbors, as friends, as feamed and as members of congress to assist them in their time of need and i yield back the balance of my time, madam chair.

mr. lee: thank you very much. now -- ms. lee: thank you very much. now i'd like to yield to the chair of the congressional black caucus of international affairs task force, congressman don payne, who also chairs the global or africa and global health subcommittee of the international relations committee. congressmen payne today has been -- congressman payne today has been working hour by hour coordinating an emergency response strategy for the house of representatives and i thank you very much, congressman payne, for being with us tonight and for your leadership. mr. payne: thank you very much. let me commend, mr. chair, the person of the congressional black caucus, barbara lee, for her continued leadership, stellar leadership, bricking -- bringing issues that are current to us before the congressional black caucus and the congress and to the nation. and so once again we're here to talk about an issue that's very close to us.

it's been indicated i chaired the international task force of the c.b.c. and others on the western hemisphere committee and so forth and so haiti has been a long time concern to many of us and we certainly wish to express our concern for this disaster, this catastrophe that has stricken haiti. as you know, haiti was hit by four devastating hurricanes and tropical storms recently, a year and a half ago. and haiti was recovering, recovering from the mudslides, recovering from the floods, working its way back for the past 15 months. then, of course, last night we were just shocked when we heard that a 7.0 queark on the richter scale -- albuquerque -- earthquake on the richter scale, giving it a magnitude of

strength that is rarely felt in an earthquake because many earthquakes go down from 100 miles, 150 miles deep into the earth, however this being five miles from the surface, meant that the shock and the after shocks were as individual earthquakes would be because of the proximity to the surface. this was a tremendous setback again for haiti. from reports we have heard that few buildings are left standing in port-au-prince, the parliament building, schools, hospitals, houses are destroyed. we have known that there has been a problem in haiti with deforestation, with the need for

firewood and heating fuel, cooking fuel, and therefore the deluding of the topping to are aify. therefore making it very -- topography, therefore making it very difficult for the environment to move forward. and so this unbelievable earthquake certainly another tremendous setback. but we know that the u.s. had a quick response. our secretary of state from hawaii early this morning indicated that the u.s. would be there in full force with all of our support, then we recall this morning the president of the united states addressed our country indicating that the u.s.

will do all within our authority to ensure that everything is done that we can. there have been a tremendous amount of coordination. we heard from cheryl mills, from secretary of state office recently on a conference call where she updated us about all of the military and humanitarian usaid problems that are going on. we have ships that are going to haiti. we have mercy hospital ship that's on its way. we have helicopters that will be deployed from our aircraft carriers. we have the coast guard that is coming down and so we have a tremendous amount of media. there was never any hesitation

on the part of our government and i commend the obama administration. in my state of new jersey we have many, many haitian americans and my office has been inundated with calls of people who want to know what they can do and concerns about their family and loved ones and what will the next step be? and just sort of in concluding, haiti has been a strong ally to the united states of america throughout its history. haiti sent troops to fight with the american patriots who were fighting for their innocence against great britain and -- independence against great britain. in savannah, the battle of savannah, many haitians lost their lives which was one of the turning points of the columnists turning the tide against the

british army. many valiant haitians died for our independence and actually during history when haitian military had a 12-year war with napoleon's army, haiti defeated the great napoleon's military and therefore france was in need of finances and france at that time controlled the louisiana territory. it was because of haiti's defeat of france and their need for cash that the united states was able to buy the louisiana territory, the same as the louisiana purchase, which therefore opened the west to the united states and louis and

clark then went throughout the continent. so if you look at it, haiti has had a tremendous amount to do with our development as a nation and so we now owe a responsibility and i believe to our long-standing friends in haiti and so i know that we are on the right track, the congressional black caucus will continue to monitor and to ensure that we have a thorough and an efficient response as we've seen. we're pleased up to this point and we will be at the forefront and so once again let me commend the chairperson of the congressional black caucus and all the members who have all joined shoulder to shoulder to say that we will march until we ensure that haiti will once again be able to come back again. they have the resilience, they

have the spirit, they have the determination, so we know that it will come back, but it will have to be with the assistance of the united states and many other nations around the world who are willing to help with that i yield back the balance of my time. ms. lee: thank you very much, congressman payne. and let me thank you for that presentation. also, for putting haiti into historical context. it's important that we'd recognize and remember the history and how our foreign policy and our relations with haiti have been so important in the past which now has brought us to this day. and so today we're talking about how we can respond in an emergency way, in a manner that will help the haitian people, help take care of the sick and help with these search and

rescue efforts. but also thank you for reminding us that we have to help haiti also to move forward and rebuild and recover. now, i'd like to ask congresswoman sheila jackson lee to speak. congresswoman sheila jackson lee is a member of the homeland security committee but also she was very instrumental in the katrina response. she provided many, many ways and vehicles for katrina survivors to live and to have a decent place to stay until they could return home. and ensure that fema was responsive to their needs and really took on many, many issues as it relates to hurricanes. she's working very hard as it relates to the earthquake in haiti. thank you, congresswoman jackson lee. i, and i was listening to congressman payne, come from an

area that hurricane is prone. it's hard to imagine what a 7.0 or 7.1 is on the richter scale given our response to maybe a four, five and a six. so this is an earthquake of enormous magnitude. those of us that come from earthquake-prone regions recognize and understand. thank you, congresswoman jackson lee. ms. jackson lee: let me thank congresswoman barbara lee, our chairperson, who raised the red flag, let out the sirens and gathered us together. and i want to respond to what she just said about the earthquake. it rocks you in your soul. 7.0 on the richter scale is hair raising. i'd almost argue it puts your hair on fire. i still have a sense and i'm trembling because it's

unimaginable because we haven't had, as you have just indicated, we look at california and get very nervous when our friends and family are there when we hear 3.0 or 4.0 as i recall in the northern california area when there was an earthquake that impacted the baseball stadium and it was all over the news. it was not a 7.0. so i would just simply say that we rise here with all solemnness. we are not speechless, but we are trembling for those who are now in the eye of devastation. and i, too, rise to thank the congressional black caucus of which i am a member, all of those who have been in meetings as we have been in throughout this morning, yesterday, a conference call that occurred.

work is going on as we speak. those who we have been able to see through pictures through many of our cable networks, in particular, have been making their way there and other networks to be able to deliver the devastation to us. an appreciation to the president of the united states who moved swiftly. there was no hesitation on the commitment that president barack obama had. and in fact, he quickly offered his prayers but he acknowledged the devastation, making note of the fact that he had seen collapsed hospitals, crumbled homes, men and women carrying their injured neighbors to the streets and he acknowledged that it was truly heartwrenching. sufficient to make you tremble. and so moving swiftly, he directed his administration to coordinate in an aggressive manner to save lives. and the people of haiti will have the full support of the united states in the urgent

efforts to rescue those trapped beneath the rubble and deliver the humanitarian relief and food, he's authorized a usaid and the state and department of defense is working together. he's mobilized a large number of individuals, including our military efforts. i also want to take note that the secretary of homeland security has indicated that our resources, including the united states coast guard and fema of which we have injuries diction over, my committee has -- have jurisdiction over, my committee has jurisdiction over in pushing the efforts that femand the u.s. coast guard are there -- fema and the u.s. coast guard are there. i want to often use 7.0. and you google 7.0 and get a sense of how deeply devastating that is. and it hit one of the most populated areas,

port-au-prince, damaged buildings extensively. we saw the palace collapse. not riddled by bullet holes but literally collapse and how fortunate we can say we were the fact that this came at 6:00 when we understand that many of the workers in the palace and the government were already gone. but we know that government officials may have lost their lives. it is said that many of the united nations personnel and peacekeeping troops have lost their lives. and so we can't put this at a level of seriousness by just our voice and our words. let me thank the u.s. command that is deploying a team of 30 people to haiti to support u.s. relief efforts in the aftermath of yesterday's devastating earthquake. let me also mention that the team will include u.s. military engineers, operational planners and a command and control group and communications specialists and they will arrive in haiti on two c-130 hurricane please

aircraft. those are huge boat-like aircraft and carry enormous amount of equipment. i think one of the important issues that i'm very concerned about and would like to get a report is how many aircraft -- let me just for the right terminology, large ships that can carry heavy equipment. we know that in the war zones that there are large aircraft that can carry heavy equipment and the equipment i'm thinking of in particular would be the earth-moving machines, the machines that can assist in finding the lost. as we understand, many are still living or still trying to live who are in the crushed buildings. and time is of the essence. it's imperative because of the crushed injuries that can kill, even if they're alive, the fact that some parts of their body is crushed, whether it's a leg

and arm, and cut off circulation and they can die. so the large equipment is so very important. and i'd like to get a report on how fast that equipment can move. we do understand that a u.s. coast guard helicopter evacuated already four critically injured u.s. embassy staff to the naval station guantanamo bay, cuba hospital for further treatment. they're deploying today to the airport of port-au-prince, haiti, to provide air traffic control capability. that is important that will allow members of congress, and might i thank congresswoman lee working with the congressional black caucus, i'd like to push for something on friday. i realize the difficulty of moving members during the time of great uncertainty. so i encourage, as you have already dictated, that the c.b.c. have a codown and we

would do that at an appropriate time. but i want everyone to realize that the congressional black caucus is leading on this and we're attempting to get to haiti as quickly as we can making sure that the operations of rescue go forward first. a u.s. navy p-3 aircraft from the forwarding operational location at el salvador took off early this morning to have an area reconnaissance of the affected area and another is expected to arrive off the coast of haiti. i can imagine they are bringing in what is necessary in terms of the heavy equipment. many countries around the world are coming and i do believe it is crucial that we acknowledge that. the red cross is receiving dollars. the white house has a website, madam chair, that i'd like to recite, if i could find it, and if i don't find it i will -- i will -- it is -- i'd be happy

to yield. ms. lee: it's usaid.gov. ms. jackson lee: and that's an excellent one to use. and then i'd like to state the number for family members, americans trying to find their family members in haiti. and that number is 888-407-4747. what i'd like to conclude on is to give comfort to haitians who are here and to ensure that they can reach out to their members of congress' office. i'll give my number 202-225-3816, for constituents in my oarea, but it's important to note -- in my area, but it's important to note that members of congress will all be going home to their districts, meeting with the haitian americans in their constituency. in particular, i'll be meeting with haitian american

constituents, and i am calling for a weekend of prayer that will happen on your day of worship, that you will offer up a weekend of prayer for the people of haiti, the families and, of course, haitian americans who are now here struggling to help their loved ones. it is also important for haitian americans and others to note that the president and the secretary of homeland security has put a hold on any deportation. and let me say this because that always raises hairs. but we in the congressional black caucus have been in the forefront for acknowledging that really the deportation of haitians have really fallen upon the backs of hardworking haitians who came here by and large simply to work and to achieve opportunities. they came alongside of the cubans but did not have the

same status. we have not found danger in the haitian community. in fact a story that appeared in "the houston chronicle" in a haitian american that i helped, she is a school teacher with two children and a husband and she's being swept off. she is part of the haitian relief effort in houston. we have been advocating reform -- haved a could he indicated for status. we have done the quickest response and that response is the deportation of haitians, and i want to repeat it again, is now on hold, is ordered by the president of the united states and the secretary of homeland security. i can't imagine any member of congress is going to rise to their feet to challenge that humanitarian act by this government. and i'm very proud of them. i do want to take note of the fact that i'm very pleased that

in my office i have major washington has been detailed to my office and his firsthand knowledge has been already helpful. and one of the things that i think we should emphasize in the immediate hours tragically is to secure a unit from the military who are able to set up temporary morgues. i hate to say that but that's what we face. let me tell you why. in listening to the leadership in haiti, haiti's prime minister told cnn that he believes there are well over 100,000 dead. we don't know that, but these are government officials who have said that number, and a leading senator estimated the number as possibly as high as 500,000. again, we don't have an affirmation of these numbers, but these are leaders who are on the ground and i believe it's very important.

eight american employees at the embassy was injured. three were medevaced. we believe three u.s. citizens were died, currently reported by the individual. i start off by saying that the houston downtown rotary club has a delegation in haiti as of yesterday, and we are working to ensure their return. let me say thank you to the u.s. embassy, the building we understand is in tact. we thank those workers there. we encourage them as they are helping to be part of the solution, we are encouraging them as we work with them for those constituents of ours that are still there that we'll be looking for. i hope that the long journey of recovery will be a bipartisan effort. i am thankful that the congressional black caucus meeting with their constituents as we go home will be able to be the harvesters of information and bring back information that can be very helpful.

the congresswoman, congresswoman lee, mentioned a number. i want to cite the american red cross, who is also accepting donations to support the response, which is used to respond to disasters such as the haitian earthquake. the american red cross made an initial contribution of $1 million from these funds for relief activities within hours of the earthquake and we're prepared and they are prepared to send supplies for 5,000 families from their warehouse in panama. the united nations is releasing $10 million from its emergency fund and as i close, let me just cite very quickly the irish telecommunication company is helping, european commission has approved $4.37 million euros, spain has committed dollars and euros, the netherlands has committed two million euros, germany has committed two million euros, china will donate

one million, sweden, six million cloners. venezuela has sent doctors, firefighters and rescue workers. mexico will send doctors and search and rescue dogs. britain has sent 64 firefighters and by the way that is a component that we believe does not exist, firefighters. my plea to our brave firefighters across america, i believe we should facilitate your going if you desire and i certainly will look forward to reaching out to my firefighters in houston for opportunities. taiwan, israel and of course the united states state department is in full force of which we hope they will be coordinating off of us. lastly, cuba will be sending doctors. they have been especially supportive in crisis and i'm in advance thanking them for their medical team. congresswoman lee, chairwoman lee, i am touched by this devastation in ways that can be expressed, as all of us are and

the reason is because we've worked with haitian americans in our constituency. we have been to haiti, we have worked it get on its feet. we have visited political prisoners in its jails, we have now been grateful for a new day in haiti. and i also want to thank former president bill clinton who has been appointed by the president so many months ago to help chart the recovery for haiti. we've got a whole new task now. but we are up to the task. and what we will had say is, my brothers and sisters, have faith, never give up the faith, for in this time of need you will find that the human community will rally towards you and they will be your wind beneath your wings, they will be your good samaritan, they will be your brother, they will be your sister. and as a good songwriter often said and many of us like to sing, just lean on me, just lean on me and we will make a difference. thank you, madam chair, for your leadership, and that of the congressional black caucus, and

i yield back to you. ms. lee: thank you very much and thank you for that very powerful statement, congresswoman jackson lee, and also for reminding us that this is a global response and the united states is leading and we tonight would like to ask the speaker if we could keep the record open for five days for those who would like to add their statements to the record. the speaker pro tempore: without objection, so ordered. ms. lee: thank you very much. once again, our thoughts and our prayers go out to the people of haiti, to the haitian american community, to all of those, our american citizens, all of those who have been impacted by this horrible, horrific earthquake. thank you. the speaker pro tempore: does the gentlelady yield back? ms. lee: i yield. the speaker pro tempore: the gentlelady yields back the balance of her time. under the speaker's announced policy of january 6, 2009, the gentleman from texas, mr. neugebauer, is recognized for 60 minutes as the designee of the

minority leader. mr. neugebauer: thank you, mr. speaker. we are clearly in a technical revolution in our country. people now have more information available to them than clearly any other time in probably the history of our country. they're worried about what's going on in their government than they ever have before and i think that's one of the reasons we're seeing people all across america rise up and start making such bold statements as attending these tea parties and attending these members that are having meetings in their districts and they're coming in record numbers. in fact, this august i had an opportunity to have a number of town hall meetings in my district and thousands of people came to voice their oppositions to what they think is happening to our country and particularly in opposition to this health care bill. every morning americans wake up

and follow the public policy issues that we are sent here to solve and many people watch c-span. i know that when i'm back in the district many people will say, congressman, i saw you on c-span. in fact, recently i had a conversation with one of my constituents that lives over and she was calling to express her great concern about what's going on in her country, these huge deficits that trillions of dollars of spending money that we don't have. the government taking over the health care and she was concerned about what's going on. and, you know what? as i learned, she he spoke more and more, she learned -- she knew a lot about the issues that were facing her country and she said she picked up a lot of that by watching c-span. a lot of the viewers who call into c-span on a daily basis, they'll voice their disappointment or concerns about what's going on in the country and they'll say, and thank god for c-span. c-span is kind of the watchdog, the eyes, the ears, the vehicle that enables millions of

americans to see what we're up to here in washington, d.c. every day the people can view congress raising their taxes, dereesing their freedoms, forcing business owners it to pay more fines, all of this thanks to c-span is here for millions of americans to see. except that's not going to be the case for health care reform in our country. mr. speaker, it's no secret that the ma -- majority plans to negotiate the final 1,000-page health care bill without c-span cameras present. president obama promised when he was running for president that he was going to change washington. he vowed at least eight times that the american people would get to see the negotiations of the health care bill on c-span. but speaker pelosi promised that the democratic-led congress would be the most transparent congress in history. she went on to say that the work on the health care bill being displayed has -- while

simultaneously denying c-span cameras access to capture the ongoing negotiations. in fact, those negotiations have been going on somewhere in this building, none of us, very few of us know where, and very few people are in the room making decisions that are going to impact the american people not for this generation, but generations to come. and all of this talk about transparency and openness, yet nobody knows who's actually in the room and actually what's happening. but we do know what happened when they went into the room, for example, in the senate and other places. the deals were cut. and i -- i think one of the problems that this majority has and the white house has is they've got health care bill that's so unpopular that they have to meet in secret to talk about it and so they can cut deals so they can get enough votes to pass it. wouldn't it be nice if the american people could experience some of that transparency that the speaker and the president of

the united states promised the american people? that they could be able to see the negotiations. i had the opportunity to experience what is positive about having these negotiations in a public setting, when we did the farm bill a couple of years ago. we sat down at a table, we had republicans and we had democrats, the cameras were on, the discussions were frank, they were honest, they were open, and in the end, you know, democracy took its place and a bill was crafted and it was passed by the house and the senate. i don't understand why we can't have that same transparency and openness when we're talking about people's health care. probably one of the most important things to many americans is the ability for them to have some control over their health care. we have now a bill that is talking about taking over the government and government takes over the health care of our country and yet we're negotiating and debating this bill in the darkness of some room somewhere in the capitol

and who knows where? let's turn the lights on to this debate, let's turn the lights on in that room, let's turn the lights on so that the american people can see what is going on as these new decisions are being made about their health care. it's too important. now, the democratic -- democrats are going to say, yeah, but when the republicans were in charge, that's the way they did things. well, that sounds like kind of a schoolyard taunting contest but the fact is, that's not the truth. the truth is, and i want to -- you to remember these date, july 15, 2003, september 9, 2009, november 20, 2003. and you say, well, what happened then? well, one of the good things about c-span is they have a great library of american policy and democracy in action. in fact, this is probably one of the most extensive once in the

world. and people can come and research and kind of see actually what did happen on the floor of the house on a particular day. and what happened on that day was that members of congress met to resolve their differences between the house and the senate version of the medicare reform legislation that provided prescription drug benefits for medicare recipients. a very important piece of legislation, one that was not without some controversy, the house passed a version, the senate passed a version, and then in the light of day these two versions were negotiated on these days, the american people got to see the discussions that went on and got to see this bill being crafted that eventually became law. if the democrats weren't engaging in these backroom deal making deals, i don't think they'd mind the lights being turned on but the problem is they're cutting deals and the reason they're having to cut

deals is because they're trying to pats a -- pass a piece of legislation that the american people don't embrace. many of us agree that health care needs to be reformed. and my colleagues on my side of the aisle, republicans and conservatives, have been offering some commonsense ideas that could reform the current system without turning over the health care to the government, without limiting patients' rights and bringing more transparency and making health care more affordable and available and accessible to the american people. if the president and the speaker and the congressional leaders are serious about this new era of openness and transparency, then why, mr. speaker, why, mr. president, why aren't the lights on and why aren't the cameras in the rooms so that the american people can see what's going on in their country? i believe they deserve to know, this is a very important issue

to the american people, and i hope that the speaker and the president of the united states will keep their word and allow the lights to be turned on in this important issue. it's now my pleasure to recognize the gentleman from pennsylvania, mr. thompson. mr. thompson: i thank my good friend from texas for leading this very important special order tonight and for yielding. transparency and accountable is such an important part -- accountability is such an important part of what we need in government and what i've seen since my election a little over a year ago and when i came to congress in january of 2009 and especially on every issue we should have that type of transparency that we're talking about today. but in particular today we're talking about health care and there's probably few issues that

we can deal with as a country and we can debate and discuss as intimate to our lives as health care. touches our lives in so many different ways. and plus it's such a significant part of our economy. so the issue of health care is just central to the american people and for the type of debate that has -- and i use that, actually cautiously, the word debate, because there really hasn't been allowed an avenue of debate. i thought when i came to congress i had a responsibility to represent the people that i now work for. when i worked in health care, i did that for 28 years, i only had one boss, it changed from time to time. today i feel responsibility -- i work for 660,000 really smart people. and that's the citizens that live and work in the fifth congressional district of pennsylvania. and i came here with a

responsibility to represent their needs in the federal government. in congress. in this chamber. and yet from day one i've been locked out of some of the most important debates that we could be having, that surrounding health care. now, i came with some expertise. 30 years of life-saving disabilities. i believe we had a health care that we could improve upon. the four dimensions of health care that i was decrease -- decreasing the cost, not having a bureaucrat or the government come between the two, the doctor and patient. i was pleased when president obama said we'd work on health care. i thought i would be invited to the table. and that is not the case.

that has not happened. i also happen to serve on the committees of jurisdiction, the house education and labor committee. but the only time i have a chance to even look at that bill was when i was asked to mark it up. and when you go -- do bill markup, the bill's been written. that's where you come in and make the final substance changes. you don't -- and you offer amendments and we did that as members of the republican caucus and the house education and labor, as did ways and means, as did energy and commerce, we made amendments in the 12th hour of that bill's proposal. it had already been written. it had been written behind closed doors. it was a back room deal. and all of our amendments were rejected. what input we had was rejected. and as i reflect back and i remember 2008, that presidential campaign year and

eight or nine times then candidate now president obama saying, and it's his idea that he would have c-span broadcast the health negotiations. we were going to have that type of transparency. eight or nine times. i watched those videos replayed in the past number of weeks. and yet despite that, that's not what has happened. today what's passed out of the house and senate was written in the democratic leader chambers in both the house and senate respectively. we are not following due process and having a conference committee. this is done over the telephone today, i guess. that means members of congress will be telecommuting. next, we won't need to come to washington because it looks like it's not a democracy or a constitutional republic. maybe it's a dictatorship. or just a handful chosen

elected leaders at the top will dictate what's probably the most important legislative issue we could deal with in terms of health. now, i'm more proud to have signed on, as my colleagues have, a measure, a sunshine -- resolution by congressman buchanan from florida that calls for transparency. i believe there's 151 signatures, co-sponsors. it's bipartisan on that bill. it's calling for full transparency when it comes to health care. as of today we started working on a discharge petition, it's not used very often on this floor, but an important one where it does not appear that, madam speaker, is going to bring mr. buchanan's bill to the floor to allow us the members of congress to have an up or down vote on whether we want transparency or the american people deserve

transparency. i certainly believe that it does. so this discharge petition is a new tool. and if we're able to garner or able to earn 218 signatures it forces that issue to the floor of transparency. and i certainly encourage all of my colleagues. i'm very confident that we have unanimous support on this side of the aisle. and we're certainly encouraging all of my colleagues on the other side of the aisle to sign that discharge petition. the american people deserve to have at least an up or down vote on transparency. when it comes to an issue that is significant as health care. now, i do believe that we were probably going to see some type of health care bill that will be back in this chamber. i suspect, unfortunately, that may happen by the state of the union address. i happen to believe i think the president's looking for something like that to speak about as a topic. and unfortunately imposing that type of an artificial time frame to continue to compress

and to force this through, the american people deserve better. they deserve full debate and full time schedule for developing this legislation. i have significant concerns as a health care professional with almost 30 years of experience, tremendous concern as i look at this bill. i look at cost. the idea behind health care reform was to bring down the cost of health care. what's being proposed neither the house or senate version doesn't do that. it drives cost up on the average american. over -- for families, one estimate i saw was at least $300 increase in health insurance premiums, for individual, $2,100 for family. if you happen to be an individual who sacrificed on salary because you wanted more health care benefits from your employer, well, those more than likely will qualify as a cadillac health care plan. you're going to get taxed 40%. 40% is what that health care

bill is going to be increased. i don't know many employers that can afford to absorb all that. that's also going to fall back on the true economic engines of this country which is our small businesses but also it's going to fall back on employees, individual workers to make up -- to pay that bill. >> will the gentleman yield? mr. thompson: i certainly will. mr. neugebauer: and the interesting thing of this not being done in the daylight is now we're hearing that the unions have sat down and cut a deal that their cadillac -- if that cadillac insurance plan was negotiated by a labor contract, they're going to be exempted. so the question is then that burden is going to be transferred more and more and more to families that didn't have a health care plan negotiated by union. again, that's the reason as i think, as the gentleman stated, is we need to be doing this in the light of day because the american people need to see what's going on here and quite

honestly what's going on isn't necessarily in everybody's best interest. i yield back to the gentleman. mr. thompson: well, i thank you. i thank the gentleman for that. it strikes me that perhaps we need to bring in a facilitator -- the old game show host from "let's make a deal," because that seems to be, as i follow this and what's reported in the media and the democratic caucus reports is there's a lot of deal making. whether it's a hospital, i believe in connecticut, one hospital being purchased, helped to secure some votes. whether it's nebraska. even the democratic governor of tennessee, i love what he called that. i've never met the man. i have a lot of respect for how candid he is. he called it the mother of all

unfunded mandates what it does to medical assistance. i know in pennsylvania our medical assistance bill over 10 years of medical assistance is expected to go up under this trattic leadership health care bills $2.4 billion. we were in -- democratic leadership health care bills $2.4 billion. we went six months without a budget because those folks who were serving in state legislature, the governor, they couldn't make the -- balance the books. they couldn't get the revenue to match expenses. and now we got this unfunded mandate coming out of $2.4 billion for the keystone state? that was before, i think, the nebraska sweetheart deal was made. so i'd be curious to know what portion of paying for nebraska do the pennsylvania taxpayers have to make up? because every other taxpayer in america is going to have to make up for what these sweetheart deals that are made.

i thank the gentleman and i yield back at this point. mr. neugebauer: i thank the gentleman. one of the things the gentleman brought up is the american taxpayers didn't get the benefit. 30 years as a health care professional. as you know in congress we have, particularly on our side, we have a number of physicians that have worked in health care, have dealt with medicaid, dealt with medicare, have seen the private payment system, all of these systems bring a huge amount of knowledge to this process but unfortunately the american people didn't get the benefit -- to benefit from their knowledge, your knowledge. quite honestly it's a shame because, as you said, you have 660,000 customers, and every member of congress has about 660,000 that are looking to them for us to come up here and

have serious discussion, serious debate and work on things that's good for the american people. and it's not good for the american people when very few people sit down and make a decision about something that's going to impact not only my 660,000 people but yours and the other gentleman from ohio. and this is serious policy. it's now my pleasure to recognize the gentleman from ohio, mr. latta. mr. latta: well, i thank the gentleman for yielding. i really appreciate him hosting this special order late this afternoon. i think it's very, very important that the american people absolutely know what's going on here. and, you know, as we all were home over the christmas holidays, i know that i had a lot events that i had to attend. i don't care if i spoke at a chamber of commerce or rotary, you name it, people were very concerned what's going on in this chamber. and the thing that they're worried about a lot of things. they're worried about the health care that's been passed by this house.

they're worried about jobs. they're worried about the cap and tax legislation. they're worried about the e.p.a. and other mandates that are being forced down their throats. but i think it's important to start off talking about health care a little bit here. i don't think there's anybody in this chamber, there's not one person in this country who wouldn't say that we shouldn't do something about having some meaningful debate on health care in this country. but when we're looking at it, what we've seen happen is we've seen -- as has been mentioned by my colleagues from texas and also from pennsylvania -- it's been a one-way street, and the american people don't care for that. they want an open debate and they want to make sure what's going on. -- they know what's going on. when i'm home i try to -- i represent the largest manufacturing district in the state of ohio. i also represent the largest agriculture district in the state of ohio. in 2008, i represented the ninth largest manufacturing

district in congress. because of what's happening in this economy, i've dropped to 15. and i don't even want to know when the next numbers come up where the fifth congressional district is located in that long list. i go out and i go to the different factories and i go to the small businesses and i really want to know what's going on, it's the best way to gauge what's going on in the economy. when i'm out there, one visit to one factory in particular really sticks out to me. and a gentleman came up to me who is a press operator and came up to me and said, i don't know what you guys are doing in washington. he said, you know, you are all talking about health care. you know, if i can't put a roof over my family's head, if i can't put food on my table, why do i care about health care right now? i worry about jobs and i worry about my job. i think that's something that's been lost in this. i know one of our colleagues from the senate recently said that maybe in the past year that congress here should have

been really concentrating more on, what, not health care, but on job creation. because let's talk about these jobs and what's going on out there. an individual like everybody you know that might work in a factory or across this country. i remember walking -- being in one of my small business owner stores in my district, and after i was in the store and bought some things and he said, can i talk to you for a little bit? we stood out. it was pretty darn cold out that afternoon. we stood out for a good long period of time and he said, if you all pass this health care legislation, i'm out of business. he said there's no way. he said, even though your bill was over 1,000 pages long and i know the senate bill will be a couple thousand pages long. what i've been able to get out of it and figure out in the newspapers is i won't be able to stay in business. he said, look around here. look at the people in the cash registers and stocking the

store here, they are going to be out of a job and it's going to be one more store on main street, u.s.a., that's going to be vacant. and we can't have that happen. and i think that what we need to do in this body is really go out and talk to these individuals. i've advocated. instead of trying to do a few hearings down here, and i don't think we've had enough hearings on health care, i think we should have taken this debate across america. and have the american people have their say on what's going on. two, members of this body would be able to hear it directly from the american people. i know when i served in the ohio legislature for 11 years, you know, when you're representing the state of ohio it's not that large of state. many times we have all of our hearings in columbus. many times we'd take our hearings out what we call the four quadrants of the state so people can actually come nearby where they live, they didn't have to drive down to the state

capital. i think that's what we should have done in this whole debate in health care. let's bring these hearings to the american people, let them have their say. that's where we're going to find out what they're going to have to say about this. because you know, this is when you start finding these things out. when you talk about job killers, you know, the model that was being advocated by one, we could lose up to over five million jobs in this country. and the national federation of independent businesses, just from the employer mandate on small businesses across this country, they're estimating 1.6 million jobs could be lost. 1.6 million jobs. that's on top of the millions of jobs we've lost since the beginning of this session and also, you know, almost three million jobs since the beginning of this year -- of last year, that have been lost just from the beginning of this administration.

we can't afford to lose more jobs in this country because where are these people going to go? the not that hard to remember back in 1982. in 1982, during that very tough recession, we can all remember because president carter during his administration from 1977 up to 1981 had created, during the campaign when he was elected, what he called the misery index. and that misery index, you took the unemployment rate, the inflation rate and the interest rate. well, what was it during his administration toward the end? you know, we saw in this country 21.5% interest rates, we saw unemployment rates in double-digits and we saw the inflation at double-digits. well, where we are today, we look at having over 10% unemployment in this country and we're talking about losing millions of more jobs because of this bill, we can't afford it. and the other things, you know, when you're just not talking to the small businesses and small factory owners out there about what's in this piece of legislation besides all these

mandates, but let's just talk about the taxes in it. this is prepared by an analysis that was done by the committee on house ways and means from the ranking member dave camp. and since the increases in 2009, 2009, the taxes just in general were $1.71 trillion in net taxes that were passed by this house. and this health care bill, the estimate on this health care bill alone is, they're looking at over $732.5 billion. that's billion dollars. and who's going to pay for this? you're looking at that 5.4% surtax on a lot of the small businesses that are ones out there that are job creators out there and other certain individuals out there at a certain level, you're looking at $40.65 billion in taxes, you're

looking at $135 billion employer mandates and you go right down the line, this is what's going to kill incentive in this country, this is what's going to kill the entrepreneurs, this is what's going to kill the people who think, why go out and get up in the morning and try and create jobs in one of the things that's lost in these halls of congress is that this body does not create jobs. this body spends the wealth of this country. and the american people are really out there and they understand it. and, you know, when you look at this, it was mentioned a little bit earlier about what's happening with the increases, you're talking about on the senate side a 40% tax on those individuals out there with a quote-unquote cadillac plan. well, you know, cadillac, they must be rich individuals. i tell you what, in the state of ohio we have a lot of auto plants and when you're looking at these auto plants, a lot of these folks out there are the auto workers who are going to end up paying 40% on an individual premium or an individual at $8,500 on their

health care plan, a family plan of $23,000. and when you put these together it's like, how are they going to pay for this as a small family? when you take all of these costs associated under this piece of legislation it's unfathomable. we were told unfathomable, i did read the health care bill. i sat down one weekend, i think it was 1,028 pages, read it, underlined it so i could get a good understanding. you're looking at a couple thousand pages on the senate side. but i think what's missing in this whole debate is, you know, here is what someone gave me not too long ago, the constitution of the united states. there's that little commercial on tv that says, wait, there's more in this little book, about 10-point type, there's the constitution, the convention, the congressional resolution, the -- all of the amendments, the virginia bill of rights, the declaration of independence, the virginia statute of religious liberty, the annapolis convention, the new jersey or

patson plan, the hamilton plan and the great compromise. right interest, that is america in a nut shell. how is it that we end up today -- how is it that we end up today putting out thousands of pages that people can't comprehend but america, our government and how we were founded, is right there? put it in your pocket and read it at any time. i think that's what the american people are very concerned about and i appreciate the gentleman for yielding. mr. neugebauer: i thank the gentleman for pointing out that the taxes that are in this bill, i think the bad news is that they're going to have to be higher taxes because they're disguising what this bill actually costs. now, the stated cost that the speaker of the house says is this bill costs $891 billion. but if you add the mandated cost of the employer-mandated task it's another $135 billion.

and if you add the cost of individual mandate taxes for individuals who will be penalized under this plan it's another $33 billion. so the total cost, the c.b.o. score, is $1.06 billion. you don't hear the speaker or the leadership or the president talking about this number. now, here's the other piece is that, you know, in the house bill there is no provision for what is being called the doc fix. today we have a reimbursement level that are being projected to be reduced by a substantial level which is going to cost more and more -- cause more and more doctors not to receive medicare and medicaid patients. so this leadership team has promised and made a deal with the docs that they will bring a separate bill, they don't want to bring it in this one because, why? it costs $209 billion and so now instead of $1.06 trillion, you've got nearly a $1.2 trillion bill. now, the other piece is that the

medicaid is being transferred to -- part of this cost is going to be medicare that's going to be transferred to states unless you're from nebraska. what is the cost of that? that's $34 billion. now here's the real sleeper here that i hope that the american people who are watching c-span and the -- because the lights are on here and the lights are on this chart and guess what? this little bill only -- it collects taxes that the gentleman was talking about for 10 years, but it only has expenses for seven years. now think about all the businesses and families all across america that if you could collect 10 years worth of salary but you only had to pay seven years worth of expenses. that's like the first three years you don't have to make your house payment, you don't have to buy your gasoline, you don't have to make your car payment, you just get your paycheck. nothing taken out of it, no

social security, no with holding. what a great deal that would be. well, that's the way this bill has been put together in order to disguise the real cost of this. and so once the three-year period passes, then on an annualized basis, this bill costs another $727 billion more than what it's being represented to the american people. so what does that total? $2.1 trillion. and so a bill that this leadership says that it's $891 billion, it's not $891 billion. it's $2.1 trillion. and at a time when the gentleman was talking about small businesses are struggling to keep their doors open and in my district and i think the gentleman's district as well small businesses pay a huge part in creating jobs. and if we put more -- who's going to pay this $2.1 trillion? because the taxes that they're talking about collecting only pay for a bill that costs $891

billion. but this bill costs $2.1 trillion. now, here's the other thing that people have looked at. this bill mandates as both my friends i know, mandates that err american have health insurance. if you don't, there's a penalty for it. so one of the things that people say that if you, the government is requiring you to do something, to pay for health care or to have health care and there's a penalty for doing it, it becomes a tax or a cost. so people that have kind of calculated what that means into the economy and g.d.p. and overall said maybe that's a $4 trillion number and so possibly really what we're looking at if we put -- shed light on this bill as we should, that really the impact of this is a $6 trillion piece of legislation. now, i don't know about you, but

i think the american people think that whether it's $2 trillion or $6 trillion or even $891 billion, that we should have had more debate than we did on this bill. the gentleman, my friended, colleagues, will remember on the day we passed this bill, very little debate was, i think one amendment, one amendment to a $2 trillion, $6 trillion bill, was allowed. and so these are the kinds of things that cause me to say, you know, mr. president, we have to hit the pause button here because we're talking about something that impacts families all across america. we have some numbers here that are big. we now are spending money that we don't have. every dollar that the government spends they have to go out and borrow nearly 40 cents of that from people like china and japan and it is not a sustainable thing and yet now we're talking about more taxes and i think potentially bigger deficits because we've not had good discussions on this bill.

now, you'll -- i yield some additional time to reflect on these important issues to the gentleman from pennsylvania again. mr. thompson: i thank my good friend for yielding. i just want to come back there, you hit on such an incredible point about individual mandate to purchase health insurance. now, i'm -- i wouldn't consider myself in any way a constitutional scholar. i'm just an american and a citizen. but my good friend here has a copy of the constitution and as i've read the one version i carry around is about 28 pages, is the constitution. i think that was put together by some really smart people a long time ago that has served the test of time and really our constitution has become a model for other countries and emerging countries to base their governing principles on. but to the best of my knowledge i can't recall anywhere in that constitution that provides a basis for congress mandating

that every individual american in this country purchase health insurance. i'll yield to the gentleman with the pocket constitution there to just see what his thoughts are on that. mr. latta: i thank the gentleman for yielding. and i think you'd be very hard pressed to find it and i know that when i've been out in my district, i know members going across their districts across this country, have found the same question being asked, where does it -- does it say that? and especially a question as the gentleman from texas had mentioned, that under this bill that's passed by the house, there's a $2.-- 2.5% quote-unquote fine on individuals plus, you know, the individual mandate that you have to have it or civil or criminal penalties could be imposed. how can we do that? you know, it's unfathomable that this will be able to with stand a challenge in court -- withstand a challenge in court that individuals will be forced to have to do this.

and, again, i think if you read this little document you're going to be very hard pressed to find it. if i could just mention, also what the gentleman from texas is talking about, what it's going to do to the states. we were able to -- there was an article that broke it down for the state of ohio. we're running about an $850 million deficit going into this and you know, unlike this body, we have to balance our books. it's constitutional that we have to make sure that we're in balance. so we're out of balance about $850 million. but it was also a story and a calculation that this bill would impose a medicaid, a medicaid debt upon the state of which -- and increase that deficit by another $900 million. $900 million. and, you know, i think that this is what people need to find out. this isn't just going to affect

small businesses or large businesses or individuals, this is going to affect your state government, your local government and if they can even function because all of a sudden these mandates are going to come down from washington and good luck. i thank the gentleman for yielding. mr. thompson: i appreciate that. in terms of cost, one of the, you know, much of my life has been -- my professional life was involved in serving older adults and in a particular section i find very appalling in both what i see in the democratic house bill and the democratic senate bill is the -- what is authorized in terms of increasing the cost of individual insurance premiums for older adults. and individual older adults rely on medicare, i'll talk on medicare in just a second, but they purchase supplemental insurance to fill in the gap, to make sure they don't exhaust their life savings, that they accumulated over time, they've earned those, they've put those

aside so they can enjoy those retirement years and be able to do the things that they've always hoped and dreamed about doing. and so supplemental insurance serves an important purpose there. within the house bill it authorizes, it allows, it code fice that insurance premiums for older adults are allowed to double. in the senate bill it does one step better than that and allows supplemental insurance costs, individual insurance costs for older adults, to triple. and that's a crime. i want to take the kind of next step by talking about the four dimensions of health care. accessibility. if we're going health care reform correctly, we're increasing accessibility. i don't think we are and we're making health care less aac -- less accessibility. part of that is through medicare cuts. half a trillion dollars in medicare cuts. and there are a lot of physicians today that do not accept medical assistance patients or medicare pishts today and it's all economic --

patients today and it's all economics. medical assistance pace 40 cents to 60 cents for every dollar and medicare pays 80 cents to 90 cents for every dollar of cost. just recently one of the facilities that president obama lifted up as a bright shining example of what we could do for health care reform, the mayo clinic, their operations in arizona decided, announced they were no longer taking medicare payment. which meant if you're an older adult and you're going to a facility that doesn't accept medicare, you have to pay out of pocket, you have to have some other provisions. and so these cuts that we've piled on top with medicare just add insult to injury and my diagnosis for either of the house and the senate democratic bills are fewer doctors and fewer hospitals. the most doctors in pennsylvania, the average doctor is over 50 years of nage pennsylvania. .

i would predict as i meet with physicians, many of them are preparing to retire because it's better to get out now versus burning through their life savings. with that, that will result in less health care services. hospitals are only making 1% to 3% margin. with medicare cuts, they will be in the negative column. you can't run a business or hospital and have more expenses than revenue and stay in business for very long. hospitals close, that is less accessible health care. this bill not only drives up costs but makes it less accessible. i thank the gentleman for leading this tonight. and i'm going to yield at this time to my good friend from ohio, mr. jordan. mr. jordan: i thank the gentleman for yielding.

and i thank for this special hour. i know that the chart in the well of the chamber talking about the real costs of the health care legislation and what it means over time, $2.1 trillion. and i think when you look at that number and couple it with some of the things we have seen happen in the last year, i gave a speech back home in the 4th district of ohio where i talked about this and i started the speech with the question, who would have imagined, who would have thought, who would have thought we would have run a $1.4 trillion deficit. who would have thought we have a $12 trillion national debt scheduled to go to $20 trillion. who would have thought within two years, the interest payment on that debt would be over $1 billion a day? we are talking some serious financial concerns.

and what do we see being pushed by the leadership in this congress, a health care bill that is going to add $1.2 trillion to those unbelievable numbers. every man, woman and child to pay off the debt is $39,000 they have to pay. it is unbelievable. when you think about one of the things that makes america great, that makes us the greatest nation in history is this simple concept that parents make sacrifices for their kids so when they grow up they have a better life. and each generation has done it for the next. but what we have in america is this focus on living and spending for the now, living and spending for the moment and sending the bill to our kids. unfortunately, this health care bill represents all that's bad about washington, not only on the spending side, but on a whole host of other areas as well. and i would say in just a

general sense and make this last point and yield back to the the gentleman from texas, i would just say as this bill represents what americans hate about washington, this health care bill is big taxes, big spending, big washington, big bureaucracies, federal government telling families and small business owners and individual americans how they're now going to get their health care and telling americans they will have bureaucrats between you, your family and doctor, represents everything that americans don't like about it. and unfortunately, it seems the leadership in this congress is bound and determined to move forward with that. one thing know about americans, we hate being told what to do. it is part of the american d.n.a. and they see this health care bill of telling them how they're going to get their health care and they don't like

it. the old line that we have in ohio and probably have in texas, too, most americans when they are traveling down the highway and they see 55, for most americans that's not the limit but that's the challenge. we hate the idea of being told how we're going to do things. the federal government is now going to tell us how we're going to get our health care and going to cost us $2.1 trillion and that offends americans. i appreciate the gentleman from texas taking the time to lead this hour. with that, i yield back. mr. neugebauer: i thank the gentleman. and the gentleman brings up an important point is that on top of this being a very expensive bill and the fact we mentioned a while ago we are going to be spending money we don't have. when i look at this chart, i think about my new grandson and my two other grand sons and what kind of legacy and what kind of future are we leaving these

young pell, the next generation -- the young people, the next generation, talking about a $16 trillion debt in this country. by 2020, we are talking about a $20 trillion. and somebody, when i was back in the district and maybe you have used this analogy, just for people to get their arms around what is $1 trillion, i asked people how long it would take you to count to one trillion, it would take you 19,000 years to count to one trillion. we are talking serious money. i thank the gentleman for bringing up the important points because this is all kind of would he haven because we are talking about jobs and the impact on patients' rights, and we are talking about the impact on the entire nation here of one turning over health care to the government. and secondly, continuing down

this road of borrowing and spending money that we don't have and charging it to future generations. i know each member here on the floor tonight has this voting card and right now, it's a credit card. and it's got a huge credit limit on it. and many of the chamber want to turn this into a debit card and not borrow from the future of our grandchildren. mr. jordan: right on target with your comments. i just remind the speaker that last spring, republican study committee offered a balanced budget, something families have to do and small businesses and local governments have to do. the federal government doesn't have to do it. we brought forth a budget that balanced the budget and we are planning on doing the same thing. you cannot continue doing what that chart shows. the gentleman from texas very

appropriately points out what it means to our kids and grand kids. the balanced budget keeps in place the tax cuts, protects social security, protects medicare and medicaid and national defense and cuts spending, which is something we have to do. we have to make the tough decisions and do the right thing. mr. neugebauer: i yield to the other gentleman. mr. latta: just talking about these numbers, how are we going to pay for this? we are looking at $23 trillion in the out years here and the question is how are we going to pay for it. we owe $3 trillion to foreign governments. over $800 billion owed to the chinese alone. and the real question is down the road, when the chinese now, the italians and the other governments are saying, wait a minute, america, you have to do

something about your spending because they are worried about getting paid back and don't want to see this debt that we owe them become cheap money. and so they are getting concerned about this. you go back to 1981 and 1982, go to those years when the federal government is borrowing heavily. and when we had 21.5% interest rates and i was practicing law and you couldn't go to the bank and get a loan because there was no money to borrow. you meet with the buyer and they would say in three years' time you are going to pay me interest and principal and hopefully there would be a balloon payment . but when you are looking at these numbers, it is unimaginable how the federal government is going to pay it back because the federal government has to borrow every

penny and do this. when you look and talk to the private enterprises, the small businesses, they are hard enough time getting credit today and we aren't in that situation. it's getting bad and not going to be anything like this that you are showing in your chart. mr. neugebauer: the gentleman from ohio brought up an important point, the current interest payment is approaching $1 billion at most historically low rates in the time of the history of our country. and the gentleman reminded us there was a time in our country and i was in business when we were paying up to 17%. it was hard to get and once you got it, you had to have a good idea. you begin to think about what happens to our interest payments if we double the interest rates that the treasury is doing right now. that begins to double the payment. and so now, instead of $2 billion, it's -- $1 billion,

it's $2 billion. we put together our budget less and less money for discretionary spending because the first thing you got to do is you got to make your mortgage payment and we are mortgaging the future of our country. and so, these are important issues. and i appreciate the gentleman bringing that point up. i think the other thing that kind of concerns a lot of people is the point that the gentleman made about is about our creditors. what if china, for example, who is our largest creditor and the gentleman points out has said we're not quite sure what our appetite in the future is for continuing to loan america money to continue to spend and borrow without some kind of discipline. and so i think certainly that is something we have to look forward -- i have another chart that we are going to bring forward here and i want to make one quick point and want to go back to see if any folks have

some departing -- one thing that the american people are also pretty tired of is all of these bureaucracies. and i know when i went around in august and i think a lot of my colleagues did, too, we brought this chart around to show the american people, this is a diagram of the house version of the bill. and you can see all of these new bureaucracies and all of these new agencies and somehow this is going to simplify health care for america and make it better for americans. and what we do know hidden in this is a czar that is given broad powers and going to be able to determine what kind of policy that you and i get to have. and for me, that's concerning that the federal government is going to be picking and choosing the coverages instead of the american people being able to

pick and choose the things that they think are coverages they need. i think when you look at the cost, when you look at the complexity of this, it's no wonder the american people are asking the speaker of the house and asking the people to keep their promise about transparency because they are very concerned about this. i yield to the the gentleman from pennsylvania. i think he probably showed this chart to his folks back home, too. and what was their reaction? >> they mr. thompson: they were appalled and these bills have been further proposed and developed and those back rooms here among the democratic leadership, the current set of new bureaucracies i believe is somewhere over 130 new bureaucracies that crb created to really dictate to that part of our lives called health care. and i'll give you one example.

we had -- in addition to just the imposing of the federal government among our personal lives and our personal decisions with health care, what it does to the cost of health care. under the former clinton administration, we had road h rode out hipaa. and certainly nobody can be opposed to maintaining privacy when it comes to health care. portability, we would be much further along. if it had been the right solution for taking the insurance with you when you change employers, i happen to think that type of portability is a positive thing. what hipaa did -- and that was one new bureaucracy that was created under hipaa -- the cost of providing health care because of hipaa, i'm sure that we can find many health care hospitals, we'll say, health care systems

that actually laid off direct care givers because they had to hire people to push papers, they had to hire people to be compliance people and comply with the new bureaucracy and new regulations that were as a result of hipaa. take hipaa and multiply that by 130. i forget the last count. my colleagues may have a better count under the health care bureaucracies, but you take the experience of hipaa, the overhead cost of providing health care, multiply that times at least 130, that's a devastating effect on providers of health care throughout this country. . ñ mr. neugebauer: one of the things that is at the center of all this, the administration is talking about jobs, i thought it was interesting today that they're going to quit tracking jobs tied to the stimulus plan because, you know what? the stimulus plan hasn't been

creating any jobs. but this health care bill is going to stimulate, it's going to stimulate a bunch of new hires in washington, d.c., and not across the heartland of america. because they're going to have to put people in place here to fill all these positions and they're going to be shuffling paper and they're going to be asking hospitals and doctors and health care providers to jump through all of these hoops so that they can justify their jobs. i think the american people want to create jobs out there in states like ohio and texas and so, you know, the job creation, unfortunately, is moving in the wrong direction if you're creating jobs in washington, d.c. we need to be creating jobs in the heartland of america. i want to yield some additional time -- mr. latta: i appreciate the gentleman for yielding and i'd be remiss if i didn't bring this up as i mentioned a little earlier. i represent the biggest agriculture district in the state of ohio, as well as manufacturing. we were talking about all these numbers of what can occur with all this massive debt that's accumulating, what's that going

to do to farmers out there? how are they going to get their crops out? how are they going buy machinery? and the last thing we want to be in this country, not only do we not want to be a debtor nation, but we don't want to become dependent on the rest of the world for our food. because once we lose that ability to grow our own food, to supply it for ourselves, we're done. and if the american people think that times are tough now, where we get our energy or where we're buying our debt, you throw food into that mix and that will be pretty much the end. i think when you put all these things together and why this debate is so important and that's why i think really that we should have had this debate going on across the united states. i appreciate the gentleman for yielding. mr. neugebauer: i see another one of our colleagues is join -- has joined us here. i want to yield some time to the gentleman from louisiana, mr. scalise. mr. scalise: i want to thank the gentleman from texas for yielding and for hosting this hour because it's so important right now as the american people are watching what's going on here in washington, most people are saying, they don't want a

government takeover of health care. they want us to be focusing on crealting jobs, which we should be doing, but instead you've got these meetings going on behind closed doors by speaker pelosi and our lieutenant, to try to get this government to take over health care, being forced down the people's throat. the president said multiple times during the campaign that he would insist that these meetings be held in public, they be on c-span so the american people could see it. and yet the president is totally -- has totally gone back on his word. these meetings are behind closed doors. ironically the president goes out publicly and bashes big insurance companies and then he goes behind closed doors and he cuts special sweetheart deals with insurance companies. he goes behind closed doors and, you know, he says, first republicans don't have a plan and yet when we submit our plan to him, he refuses to meet with us. he throws us out of the room. and the american people are tired of this. because we should be doing the things that we have proposed to reduce the cost of health care. but instead you've got these backroom sweetheart deals, you have this it these closed-door

meetings instead of the public transparency we were promised and it's unfortunate because we're talking about 1/6 of our economy, we're talking about a government takeover bill that would throw millions of americans off their health care. i appreciate what you're doing and i yield back. mr. neugebauer: i thank the gentleman and my colleagues for entering into this very important discussion so that the american people can have a little light shined on a very important issue. the speaker pro tempore: the gentleman yields back. under the speaker's announced policy of january 6, 2009, the chair recognizes the gentleman from texas, mr. goal earth, for 60 -- gohmert, for 60 minutes. mr. gohmert: thank you, mr. speaker. in the interesting time we live in we have heard in the past

year that gitmo is the main recruiting tool, the best recruiting tool, for al qaeda, for islamic jihadists who want to destroy america, and so i thought it was important if we look at that a little more in depth rather than just having a cursory action. because for those of us who have been to gitmo, i've been twice, i know that no one has ever been water boarded at guantanamo bay facility. the khalid sheik mohammed water boarding occurred in the middle east. and there are those who are worried about water boarding continuing. the fact is, when that was leaked and such a big deal made out of it and the fact that we have, when the u.s. has done it

or been involved or been doctored there, there was no way they were going to allow harm to come to the individual being water boarded, the word was out. and so islamic extremists, jihadists that want to kill americans that want to wipe us off the face of the map, want to destroy israel, they knew and could tell their extremists, you don't have to worry if you're ever water boarded because they'll have a doctor there, they won't let anything happen to you. so obviously it will never work as a procedure again. but as we have found out, there are a lot of americans that are alive today because that procedure was used. so if gitmo had never been used as a location where water boarding or torture of any kind occurred, then why is it so bad? well, it's because a lot of people don't know what they're talking about.

having visited many prisons as a judge, chief justice, and even as a congressman, having visited prisons, i know from visiting guantanamo bay facility, the defention facility there, that the people are not mistreated. they get good feed and -- food and in fact most of the detainees there have gained weight, not lost weight. they get excellent medical facilities, they get treatment when they need it. the interrogation often if there is any at all occurs in a big lounge chair there. and in fact the biggest problem there at guantanamo bay for those who work there is having feces and you are inthrown on them. the de-- urin -- urine thrown on

them. they find ways to throw feces and urine on the guards. in most prisons if do you that you're put in isolation where there's no way you can do that again. not at guantanamo bay, as i was told by a commander there, because there are so many frequent visits by those who want to make sure no one is being done wrong there, they don't want anyone ever to be found in isolation no matter how much feces or urine they're throwing. so the thing that's normally done is taking away some of their movie watching time. yes, they watch movies there. nothing that violates their religion, they're given korans that american hands have never touched. it's just -- they're given food that is not inconsistent with their religious beliefs. it's really rather amazing.

and then all of the money that was spent to build a courtroom facility there and areas where the detainees could consult with their attorneys in private so that there was -- it was clear to anyone in that facility, in that detention area, that there's no way to have bugs in this place, and so could you truly have private consultation, but it is so isolated an area you didn't have to worry about anybody coming in there. and the security measures were such there that it was an amazing facility for the trial of alleged terrorists. now we have americans who are saying, but it's just wrong to hold somebody without trying them, those people are completely ignorant, they're not mean, they're just ignorant, of the laws of war that have gone throughout time. because never in the history of

mankind has there been a time when a group declared war on another group or country and then were captured while they were in the process of bringing war against those individuals that they were given full civilian treatment in court. certainly there's never been any american prisoners that were treated like that. in fact, if you read of the torture to americans during world war ii, some in the pacific or some in europe, but just phenomenal the treatment that has been accorded americans. if you look at what has happened before guantanamo bay was ever opened to americans at the hands of jihadists, extremists, then you find out that gitmo didn't cause those problems.

that didn't cause a rallying cry for people to join some extremist jihadist group. it was a matter of their religious beliefs. and if you look at the pleading that was filed by khalid sheik mohammad who has now been ordered by our president, our attorney general, to be brought to new york for trial instead of being tried under the constitutional military commission down in guantanamo, you see what he has to say. in fact, you go back to his last page -- and this was declassified so that everyone in the country and the world could know what he had to say. khalid sheik mohammed is a very smart man. he is intent on doing everything he can to help destroy america, destroy our freedoms, destroy our way of life, but if you look at page 6 of his pleading,

toward the end he says, we have news for you. the news is, you will be greatly defeated in afghanistan and iraq and that america will fall politically, militarily and economically. your end is very near and your fall will be just as the fall of the towers on the blessed 9/11 day. we will raise from the ruin, god willing, khalid sheik mohammed says, we will leave this imprisonment with our noses raised high in dignity as the line emerges from this den and, he says, we ask god to accept our contributions to the great attack, the great attack on america, and to our place, and to place our 19 martyred brethren among the highest peaks in paradise. other comments he had to say in his pleading and as i understand

it he did his own interpretations and he would make statements -- interpretation and he would make statements and then support them with what he believed was support from the koran itself, he says, god stated in his book, verse 190, and fight in the way of allah those who fight you but allah likes not the transgressers but then he goes on in the very next page and talks about, then fight, and he quotes, he says from god's book, verse 9, then fight and slay the payingens wherever you find them. and seize them and besiege them and lie in wait for them in each and every ambush. he says himself, in god's book, he ordered us to fight you wherever we find you, even if you were inside the holiest of all holy cities. the mosque in mecca and the holy

city of mecca and even during sacred months. so we've been told we could never fight a battle with extremist jihadist during ramadan because that might violate their religious beliefs, khalid sheik mohammed states his belief that it's fine for them to blow us up in their sacred months and that's just fine. . he says we don't possess your military might nor your nuclear weapon, nevertheless, we fight you with the almighty god. if fighting causes fear and terror, then many thanks to god because it is him that has thrown fear into your heart and your statement that god had a son and your trinity beliefs. anyone who is a christian who

believes there is a holy ghost as was cited in the treaty of paris, 1783, a copy of that is over in our state department on display. and can you see that the bold big letters that start the treaty of paris in which england had to recognize the united states, there was a treaty after the surrender at yorktown, but that was the official treaty that england signed on to and they knew that this was so important that they had to have it done in the name that was so important that no one in england would dare try to violate that oath. so in big bold letters, it says, in the name of the undivided and most holy trinity.

so khalid sheikh mohammed makes clear anybody that would sign on to something like that is an infidel and needs to be killed. and he quotes, god stated in his book versus -- verse shall we cast terror in the heart of the unbelievers. in other words saying that allah or god had a son. their place will be the fire and evil is the home of the wrongdoe doers. this was a pleading declassified by the court so we could knowway khalid sheikh mohammed wrote and he wrote it on behalf of himself and the other prisoners who are now going to be transferred to new york city in an unprecedented move to get him right in the middle where he can cause trouble.

they were planning on pleading guilty. there wasn't going to be much of a trial. they were going to take credit what they have done as he has done in this pleading. now that our president and attorney general have said, let's bring them to new york and give them a platform to spew their anger and hatred and disgust for the united states and -- they didn't say this verbally, but it's clearly what will happen, give them a platform to recruit for the terrorists. i know the president didn't intend to do that. i know that our attorney general didn't intend to do it but they are ignorant of history and therefore they don't realize and forgive them for they don't know what they are about to do. khalid sheikh mohammed says

america is the number one and the largest country in the world spreading military might and america is the greatest supplier to the occupying terrorist state of israel. and so god has ordered us to spread jihad in his cause and he says this is evident in many koranic versus success. he says god has stated in his book, they fight not against you even together except in fortified townships or behind walls. you would think they were united, but their hearts are divided. that is because they are people who understand not. and so as khalid sheikh mohammed is saying, this is a great recruiting tool because of their

ignorance. they don't know who they are fighting. they aren't united and obviously there are people who realize we are at war with them. and they want to stop us. but because of that division, the ignorance of those who don't understand the war, not of the vast majority of islam but for this small, perhaps 1% of islam, these extremist groups, they are saying they will be able to defeat us because we are divided defeat us because we are divided because so many are ignorant and don't understand that we are in such a war with us. i have a friend, colleague, mr. thompson, i would like to yield him such time as he may need. mr. thompson: i appreciate my good friend from texas for hosting this hour on such an important issue. really, this is about national

security. and also appreciate your leadership on this. i believe you serve on the judiciary committee and with your background as a judge, chief justice, you have so much experience in this area. my background is not in those same areas, so i appreciate having a leader with somebody with that type of experience on these issues as we're looking at it. my concern as a citizen and as a member of congress is what i think is the number one responsibility, the primary responsibility of the united states government and that is to provide for national security, safety and security for our citizens and this is an issue that touches my heart deeply in terms of the risks that are involved here. we are at war and we are at war with an enemy that is not uniformed. an enemy that is evil and the

measures that it uses as they seek to kill americans. and so this whole issue surrounding guantanamo bay which has worked well in terms of a very humane way, respectful way that have housed terrorists, those captured in the act of war and has treated them very respectfully. i don't have a legal background and that's why i look forward to your opinions on that and your insight as we -- as the president, which i disagree with. our country is safer by using guantanamo bay, where those individuals are right now to keep them there as opposed to bringing them to new york for trial or bringing them to illinois to be housed, to bring them to our shores, to our soil.

i would like to yield back to the gentleman in terms of legal concepts such as discovery and what do you see as the risks as the president continues, i believe, in opposition of the majority of the american people to want to bring these terrorists to our soil. and i yield back. mr. gohmert: that is an excellent question that has been posed. the discovery that is afforded in a civil trial, civilian u.s. district court as opposed to those in a military commission. a military commission as set up constitutionally as the supreme court has said is constitutional has more limited discovery so we do not have to turn overall our national secrets to our enemies during a time of war, when they're at war with us. can you imagine if during world

war ii there were japanese or germans who were at war with us captured on the battlefield and president roosevelt or president truman had said, you know what? we're going to bring them in and put them in a show trial in a u.s. district court in america. as defendants, we want all your information. germans saying, we want to know what information you have about our enigma machine. we want to know in the japanese area of occupation what information you have. all the demands that can be made in discovery. well, a u.s. district court can review those things and review those things. you don't have to disclose state secrets.

it is ridiculous to get to that point. i hear some again who are ignorant of history, good people, just ignorant of history, that think we need to afford these people all of the rights that any american has. well, an american who is at war with another country is afforded certain rights, but not the rights that they would be afforded in a u.s. district court. they are afforded all of the rights that our constitution requires in the military commission. and there is more restrictive discovery that we saw. and unfortunately, there was ignorance in america and among our leaders and among most of us in america that there was a war going on. the united states was at war. but only one side knew, and that was the side attacking us. and so president carter didn't

realize that. actually, president reagan didn't realize that. president clinton certainly didn't realize that for all the good things he was doing to help oppressed muslims in the world and sending troops to help out. you would have thought there wouldn't be these types of things being planned on his watch. but we know from the trial back in the early 1990's, after the bombing at the world trade center in 1993, that on one hand, information was disclosed in discovery that the u.s. had gotten intelligence by intercepting cell phone calls. that was immediately back to al qaeda and they immediately stopped using cell phones. and so, had that not occurred and that trial not occurred in a u.s. district court, so they wouldn't have handed over the information that they were getting our intelligence from

cell phones, there is an excellent chance we would have known 9/11 was coming from the cell phone chatter. but that was foreclosed. we also know from that trial back in the 1990's, that information was demandeded by the defendants by the unnamed co-con spiritors that was to be disclosed within two weeks. all of that information was back in the hands of osama bin laden and they knew who not to use and who we were on to. and again, hurt us dramatically in our intelligence efforts to defend ourselves and to prepare for the onslaught against us. so it is dangerous to provide people at war with you with the kind of discovery that will be available in the u.s. district courts. and what is infuriating to me, i

was in the army for four yours and i know about the military justice system. and to think about our soldiers in harm's way having the requirement put on them that for the future, you may have an attorney general or a president that decides the people you capture on the battlefield are entitled to trial in u.s. district court, therefore, we know you are being shot at but go out there and bring your forensic wagons and start getting fingerprints so we can prove that they touched the bullet casings that you saw them touch because your testimony in the u.s. district court will need to be supplemented with hard evidence. we'll need d.n.a. evidence and need other evidence, forensic in nature, we'll have to have people go out there and check

out the bodies, take the bullets out of the servicemen so we can establish that, yes, their fingerprints -- that is insane to require our soldiers and sailors, our military in harm's way to go out and be conducting forensic evidence examinations on a battlefield during a time when people are at war with us. and i was glad to hear our president say in the last couple of war our president say in the last couple of weeks that he recognizes now that we are in a war. well, if we're in a war, you don't bring -- they were called enemy detainees, now amended in the past year by our majority in the house and senate, that language has been changed. it is inpo light to call them

enemy combatants and it has been called alien unprivileged beligerants but goes back to khalid sheikh mohammed. they fight you not even against together. it is very great. you would think they are united but their hearts are divided, because they are people who understand not. they know that there are people in this country who are ignorant, that they are in a war and intend to destroy us and they say that's what gives them the advantage over us. and so you have people well intentioned -- now that's a good intention of the president of the united states to say, you know what? we are going to be above board and give them all this information and have all this open trial and we heard we are going to have open proceedings on the health care bill and that's not happened, we aren't

going to open up the health care debate and not going to do what we promised and put it on c-span, we're going to do that for the enemies of the united states. that is extraordinary. . mr. thompson: would the gentleman yield? the republicans in this congress have been working very hard over the past year to keep those terrorists, i don't care what other label they put on them, these terrorists, i have a son that was wounded as a result of some of those folks and -- south of baghdad. they are terrorists. they seek to do harm. they want to kill americans. they have been captured in the act of war in a war theater. i have tremendous concern with commander in chief, with my colleagues on the other side of the aisle that i really think

that are compromised principles. you look at every decision gets made, there are principles behind it. i think the principle above all for the commander in chief and the united states congress is the safety and security of american citizens. it comes down to keep every single american safe. that's a principle easy to find in the opening paragraph of the constitution of the united states, this would not be a debate. we would come to the conclusion that our commanders who established guantanamo bay used the right wisdom and rule of law to to do that and we are doing that in a fair and humane way to keep the terrorists housed and keep americans safe. but the principle, i believe, that is being followed by our commander in chief and by my colleagues on the other side of the aisle is one of almost bowing to other countries, of doing what appears to be

politically correct. of winning favor in the international community that closen guantanamo bay is not good for americans, it seems like something that's offered up as a public relations move to the rest of the world. i yield back for your thoughts. mr. gohmert: it goes back, i would take you back to 1978, when a very nice man at that time was president named jimmy carter. i believe in 1978, it was in 1978 that president jimmy carter hailed the shah of iran as leading a country that was the most stable entity in the whole middle east. and then a year later, it had been home to a revolution, the

itoe la khomeini came back and for the first time in our lifetime, some day the first time ever, but certainly the first time in my lifetime, there was an islamic extremist jihaddist individual in charge of a nation and that nation's military. and so, going back to what khalid chic mohammed said in his plead -- khalid sheik mohammed said in his pleading, it's because people understand not. we had a president, nice man, jimmy carter, but he understood not. he was wrong about the shah having such a stable country. it was not stable. that was misread. and then he misread that these were guys that could be, you just were nice to them, they'd be nice back. and apparently even sent a cabinet member to talk to the

representative of itoe la khomeini to tell -- of atoe la khomeini to tell him, we're ready to talk and be friends with you, tell us how you want to proceed he understood not that these people considered themselves as extremist jihaddist enemies of the united states, that they consider the great satan and they needed to destroy it at all costs. the ayatollah khomeini called for basically war against the united states. and in november -- on november 4, 1979, iranian muslims, extremists, stormed the american industry in itaye ran. they took actual more than 52 hostages. they released some for p.r. purposes later, but kept 52 diplomats hostage. now president carter and his

administration thought, we can just out-friend them and they'll release them. we'll be nice to them. we know how to do this. we'll be really, really nice and we'll work with them and in fact at one point, president carter said we don't want to do anything that will put these hostages at risk. that was a green light to islamic extremist, jihaddists, around the world that the united states is a paper tiger, it's weak, and as khalid sheik mohammed said, they're divided, they understand not, they don't realize we're at war with them and going to destroy them so we can take them. those 444 days that the united states allowed itself to be held hostage in iran were the greatest recruiting tool of

jihaddists the world over. and we did nothing. but, during the campaign of 1980, president carter painted president -- presidential candidate reagan as being so crazy he might just attack these guys and take them out that you couldn't trust him. remember, "saturday night live" had a sketch of reagan walking around, asking where the red nuclear button was, he was going to push it. the reputation around the world was such that people perceived this reagan guy may actually come after us. we better release the hostages. the hostages were released. but again, unfortunately, it wasn't limited to president carter and adviseors -- advisors in his administration that they didn't recognize the jihaddists were at war with us. we had marines in beirut,

lebanon, in 1983, the marine barracks were bombed in lebanon. one terrorist driver drove through the conner is tino wire -- the concertino wire, through the guards and the truck exploded and killed 241 american servicemen in beirut, lebanon. that was with a phenomenal recruiting tool. people in america started saying, let's get out, let's get out. unfortunately, on that occasion, president reagan, unfortunately, bowed to his advisors and to popular opinion at the time that we needed to just pull out. that was an extraordinary recruiting tool at the time

jihaddists used it in an incredible way to recruit for their crazed jihaddist cause because they were able to say, look, one guy gave his life, detonated a bomb, and the most powerful military country in the world, the united states, turned tail and ran. one man completely committed as a suicide bomber, could make the united states cower and run. that's the way it was perceived. that was a phenomenal recruiting tool for jihaddists around the world. they were also not ignorant, the jihaddists were not that in vietnam, instead of just finishing giving our soldiers, sailors, airmen, what they immediated to just win the war and come home, it was strung out and washington, under president johnson, he was even picking the

bombing sites in washington. instead of letting the service men do their jobs. one of the things i admired about former president george h.w. bush, when he committed we were going to liberate kuwait from the atrocity of saddam hue cain moving in and taking over that country, he did a great thing he called in the military guys and said, you guys are in the military, you tell me what we need. here's what we're going to do, we're going to liberate kuwait. they put together a plan and that's what they did. it was not the civilians running the activity. as sam johnson a member of our body here, colleague, who was in the hanoi hilton for nearly seven years, as he was told after we carpet bombed north vietnam, hanoi, for two week, they rushed back to the negotiating table, worked out a deal that was favorable to them

and not the united states, as sam says, when he was leaving the p.o.w. camp, the hanoi hilton, a commander was laughing and said you stupid americans if you'd just bombed us one more week we would have had to surrender unconditionally. we didn't do that. we didn't give the service member what they needed to win the war and come home that should have been the lesson of vietnam. never commit troops unless you're willing to give them what it takes to win the war and come home. in beirut, lebanon, our marines were told, and the ones who were out on the perimeter that should have been able to stop the truck coming through the concertina wire, there should have been more to to the stop than that, they were not allowed under their rules of engagement to even have rounds in their weapons. we repeated some of those same mistakes. but that was a tremendous recruiting tool.

and then if you go through the history, there's so many acts of war, that was certainly an act of war, the -- under everyone's interpretation of international law, when you invade an embassy, you have committed an act of war against that country. there was an act of war against america. we were within our rights to say, either get our hostages out within 48 hour, 72 hour, whatever it is, or we're coming in. i was in the army at fort benning at the time, we were paying close attention, nobody was dying to go to iran, but people were prepared to go and die if necessary to defend our country after an act of war like that. and yet, what happened after that was no response. and so again, they were able to recruit. after we pulled out of beirut, lebanon, after the attack on our

marine barracks in 1984, malcolm kerr a lebanese-born american, was president of the american university of beirut. he was killed by two gunmen outside his office. hezbollah said the assassination was part of the organization's plan to drive all americans out of lebanon. march 16, hezbollah kidnapped william buckley a political officer at the u.s. embassy at beirut. he was supposed to be exchanged for prisoners that didn't happen. but hezbollah, and there was a trial in u.s. district court of a civil nature, not a prisoners of war, not of enemy combatants, but there was a trial in u.s. district court where the evidence came forward to prove and it was established and the court found that hezbollah was responsible for the attack on the beirut marine barracks and that it was sponsored by iran. that iran was the one behind

that all. they've been at war with us since 1979 and we didn't know it. you would have thought as other things occurred, like the kuwait airways flight 221 being hijacked and diverted to tehran where two americans were killed, that might have been a clue. it might have been a clue when two hezbollah members hijacked a t.w.a. flight and forced the pilot to fly to beirut, eight crew members and 145 passengers were held for 17 days and one of the hostages a u.s. navy diver, was murdered. you would have thought that perhaps when four terrorists from an organization attacked officers at the leonardo davinci airport in rome and several people were killed and many more

wounded that would have been a clue that someone was at war with us. it might have been a clue in an explosion at the nightclub in berlin frequented by american soldier, that two u.s. soldiers were killed and 191 individuals were wounded, including 41 u.s. soldiers, an they saw the evidence indicated libya was involved, that that would have been a clue. . in 1988, another abduction by hezbollah, backed by iran and hezbollah later claimed they killed colonel higgins. so who were alive back in the 1980's, after libya had sponsored terrorism, president reagan realized you got to deal with these people in a manner

they understand. we sent planes to libya. they bombed his home and we didn't have any more trouble out of libya for a number of years. but if you come up to 1991, there were two car bombings that killed a us air force sergeant, wounded in istanbul and the turkish islamic jihad claimed responsibility. february, 1993, a massive van bomb exploded in an underground parking garage in the world trade center that killed six and wounded 142. four islamist activists were responsible for the a-- attack. but we didn't realize we were in a war, we were in a war. so when you start thinking about what is the greatest terrorist

recruiting tool, what has enabled the jihaddists to recruit since 1979? well, first, they use the fact that even though we have so much military might we turn to iran from vietnam and were able to use that in 1979, they attacked the embassy and took american hostages and did nothing about it. that was a great recruiting tool. and they were able to recruit well because of it and were able to show they scared the great satan and had more power and military might. and in 1993, bombed our bar racks and killed 241 marines and withdrew, that was a great recruiting tool. wasn't gitmo. these people have been at war

with us for 30 years and took too long for people here in authority to realize it. if you go forward -- and there are many other killings, bombings, but in 1995, islamic extremist set fire to a warehouse belonging to the u.s. embassy and threatened the u.s. security guard and the armed islamic group was apparently suspected and felt clearly they were involved with the attack. november 13 of 1995, a car bomb exploded in the parking lot outside the rihad headquarters of the saudi arabia national guard, killing seven persons, five of them u.s. citizens. three groups, the islamic movement for change, the tigers of the gulf and the combatant partisans of god claimed responsibility for that attack,

that act of war against americans. february 25 of 1996, a suicide bomber blew up a commuter bus in jerusalem killing 26, including three u.s. citizens injuring 80 others. among those injured were u.s. citizens. hamas claimed responsibility for the bombing. june 25 of 1996, a fuel truck carrying a bomb exploded outside the u.s. cow baltimore towers having the -- khobalt towers, wounding 515 persons including 240 u.s. personnel. saudis hezbollah was the group responsible. they were at war, but the united states still did not recognize it and still turning over secrets and intelligence-gathering information through trials,

through the courts and the united states district court. what a mistake. 1997, september 4, the bombing on a street in jerusalem. hamas claimed responsibility for the attack. there are so many others. but november 12, two gunmen shut to death two u.s. auditors and their pakistani driver as they drove from the hotel. two groups claimed two groups claimed responsibility. islamic council and islamic revolutionary council also known as the emerald action committee. august 7, 1998, car bomb exploded at the rear entrance of the u.s. embassy in nairobi and killed 12 u.s. citizens and injured 5,000.

they claimed responsibility part of al qaeda. 2000, october 12, while they cam pained for president in 2000 was going on, a suicide squad rammed the war ship uss cole with an explosive laden both killing 13 sailors and injuring 33. that was believed to have been caused by osama bin laden's al qaeda organization. and we still didn't recognize there was a war going on, not until september 11, 2001 when people know what happened. finally we got the picture. finally we realized this war has been going on for -- since 1979

and it's time we fought in this war and not let it be a one-sided war. there is no answering these people who want to destroy our way of life with reaching out in peace. i saw a sign not long ago that said -- some protest tore said, no war ever brought about peace. i was amazed. obviously, this person doesn't know anything about history. peace comes when bad guys are defeated, those who are mean and evil and they want to take the liberty that others have, you defeat them and then you have a period of peace. and there are periods of peace when the bad guys defeat countries who don't know they're at war, even though they are stronger and that is what al qaeda, that's what hezbollah, that's what the jihaddists are counting on is the ignorance in

this country by people who don't realize there is a war going on and we are determined to show how loving and peaceful we can be. chamberlain tried that. he tried that. and what happened was as winston churchill said, peace is someone who keeps feeding the alligator hoping they will be fed last and it didn't work. it didn't work in the pacific when people declared war against you, you have got to fight them in the war until they finally acknowledge, ok, we give up and no longer at war and quit fighting. at that point, the detainees and prisoners of war that you have held, you release them. that's the history of civilized society at war and when the released you hold those and probable cause to believe they

committed war crimes and then try them like in a nuremberg or military-commission style try. trial. and i would like to recognize michelle bachmann. mrs. bachmann: i thank the gentleman from texas for the wonderful job he has been doing and i caught some of the gentleman's remarks briefly and i was so pleased that you talked about this whole concept of the greatest terrorist recruiting tool, gitmo or u.s. weakness. you are exactly right in your description of what we're looking at now with gitmo. what we're looking the president's idea of closing gitmo is actually a fiction and the gentleman may have addressed that issue but it can't be understored enough in my mind. gitmo will not be closed. yes, it may no longer be in its current physical location off of u.s. soil, but gitmo will simply

be packed up into boxes, a moving van is going to show up and that moving van will be taken across water and across land and guess what? gitmo is going to have a new address, it will will fill out a address, it will will fill out a change of address form for the worst of the worst terrorists that we know of that are enemy combatants against the united states sit since. only now these enemy noncombatants that are being held off u.s. soil will be brought on to u.s. soil where they will be on to u.s. soil in thomson, illinois where they can do what we know they have been doing and that is recruiting through the u.s. prison system for more people to become

radicalized in their shria-compliant view. is this going to make any safer? ultimately that's the final question that we as ems of congress have to satisfy ourselves? will we be safer bringing these terrorists from gitmo on to u.s. soil? or will we be safer keeping them secure where they have been all along on gitmo? i think it's keeping them on gitmo. something else i would like to bring up and it's the issue of this under wear bomber on christmas day. this is such a horrible travesty that was averted simply because of the incompetence of this terrorist. but for his incompetence, we would have this chamber filled with members of congress screaming about what happened, why weren't we secure. we would be having lively discussions every night.

thank god this terrorist was not successful that he came so close to taking nearly 300 innocent lives. we have seen this path before. and there is a common thread that occurs. the common thread are people who are sold out to radicalize shria-compliant jihad. that's the thread. shria-compliant jihad. that's the thread. why aren't we as a government looking for people with that profile? oh, i guess i said a bad word, profile. is thatal political noncorrect word? let's talk about what we have to do to keep safety foremost, not political correctness, safety of the american people. that is what this is about. and the american people are right to be outraged whin they think that their -- when they think that their government is lifting the multiculturalism

over the safety of the american people. in the name of political correctness, americans would die needlessly in tragedies like the one thankfully that was averted3 one thankfully that was averted on christmas day. may that never be. and for my money, one of the worst things that happened is when this underwear bomber was taken off the plane, he had a small interrogation then was given miranda warnings and a defense lawyer and that's the end of it. now duct tape is over his mouth and the united states will not benefit over what this fellow intended against american citizens and other citizens from nations of the world. this is a travesty. he should not have been given his miranda warnings in my opinion, but fully vetted and

interrogated for what he is. because let's remember, we have to make a decision. are we going to take this war seriously or are we go to go treat this as a criminal act akin to breaking and entering? this is war. you can't have anything more clear, someone who comes intending to bomb a plane, northwest airlines plane over detroit? this is an act of war. this is not a breaking and entering. this isn't a miranda situation with given full rights to a lawyer and saying don't say a word. we are giving you rights, privileges and immunities of an american citizen even though you aren't one and you planned evil intent for a lot of innocent people. this is beyond believe to me. i can't believe it. and i'm so grateful to the gentleman from from tyler, texas, because you are asking exactly the right question.

is gitmo a recruiting tool or u.s. weakness? when you lawyer up and mir andize an actual terrorist in an act of war against america, you don't give them miranda. you interrogate them. why? because at the end of the day, will the american people be safer or will we be more at risk? closing gitmo, that location, moving it to thomson, illinois, it's still gitmo, did you gitmo north and that equals u.s. weakness and with that, i yield back to the the gentleman from from tyler, texas. mr. gohmert: it is weakness that gives a recruiting tool and the joy among jihaddist, we told

them, close gitmo. it's a nice place if you're going to be held if you're a prisoner, we told them it's a recruiting tile tool. nowkah lead sheik mohammed said, that's because people understand not that's the reason they defeat us. they didn't get it. they nouth they -- thought they really needed to close gitmo. that shows weakness. the fact that we are closing gitmo, that we are showing weakness, it's a recruiting tool. if you go back to the surge ordered by president bush. the surge, general petraeus told us, we need a surge. we got a surge. and all of a sudden things are going much better in iraq. those in favor say aye going great. and some of the declassified information that was obtained by

our intelligence source we saw their own writings, we saw what they sthasmede said things are going to good for the united states we thought after the republicans lost the majority, they would pull out but now that they've come with more troops and they're defeating us, we can't recruit. their own information said we can't recruit. because they showed strength. and now they're having a big time because they've been successful in making us think that showing weakness is going to help us when it's actually helping them recruit. it is exactly what happened every time they acted and did something violent and we responded by backing up. i want to address, quickly, one of the things brought up by some of our friends, some people in the country say, well, these prisoners need all of the constitutional rights they're supposed to have and they're getting them at gitmo.

because just as if, when i was in the military, i was subject to ucmj, i was subject to a military court. i wasn't entitled to a trial if i'd done something on a military installation, i was entitled to a military trial. that was constitutional. it's constitutionle al for this congress to set up military commissions to try people engaged in war against us. that is constitutional. and they've gotten all of their constitutional rights as someone at war with us. and now, because they're going to be tried in the united states, they're deciding to plead not guilty so they can put on a show. what causes more weakness? what causes more rere-cruting? is it u.s. weakness or is it gitmo? clearly our country leaders have been suckered into thinking that closing gitmo will be a good

thing for us and in fact what's telegraphed is, these people are weak, just as khalid sheik mohammed says, you would think they were united but their hearts are divided. that's because they're people who understand not. they're saying, we don't understand. mrs. bachmann: if the gentleman would yield, on khalid sheik mohammed, this is an extremely important point, the master mind of 9/11 who achieved his goal of killing 3,000 innocent americans in the world trade center bombing he got his way. why would we give him his way by bringing him to new york city at over $200 million a year taxpayer expense to give him a show trial when he has already pled guilty and already asked to be executed? what happened? did the president, did the attorney general say, to khalid sheik mohammed, now wait a minute, you don't want to plead

guilty you don't want to be executed. you want to come to new york city and have the trial just like you asked for in the first place. why would we do that? because all we will be -- the only message we'll be sending to future terrorists will be, you, too, can have a show trial in the city of your choice if you come to america, or if you try a terrorist activity, you, too, can be mirandaized and be part of the american legal system. i yield back to the gentleman from texas. mr. gohmert: i realize my time is expiring. i appreciate the indulgence, mr. speaker. it should be clear, though, the way to deal with iran is not through weakness. if they won't shut down the nuclear proliferation, we've got to shut them down. and with that, i yield back my time. the speaker pro tempore: the gentleman yields back. for what purpose does the gentlewoman rise? mrs. bachmann: i have a motion to adjourn. the speaker pro tempore: the question son the motion to adjourn.

those in favor say aye. those opposed, no. the ayes have it. the motion is agreed. to accordingly, the house stands

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it is $24.95, plus shipping and handling. >> now remarks from joint chiefs of staff's chairmen of michael mullen on suicide prevention. he spoke earlier this morning and a conference -- for veterans at mental health. this is 35 minutes. [captioning performed by national captioning institute] [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2010] >> it is a privilege to introduce to you, the 17th chief of staff admiral mullen and his wife. sir. [applause] >> ççgood morning. before we get started on the topic, that is so important to all of us, i do want to express

our thoughts and condolences for all the citizens of haiti and those who have been struck by this a very significantç trage. also, certainly, from my perspective, the united states will do all we can to help. we will work throughout the night to figure out how we can do that and do it as rapidly as possible. an awful lot of people working in that direction right now. there are significant internationalç efforts, and all of those will be appreciated. we should keep the haitian people in your thoughts and in our hearts today as they start to recover from this very, very tragic incident. i will make a few comments. and then devereaux will make a

few comments. we only have about a half an hour -- and then deb will make a few comments. this is the third day of the conference. we are in this together. i know this subject, the subject of suicide is one of tremendous difficulty and challenge and understanding. there have meant a lot of people who have worked onç this diligently for many years, and certainly,ç in the services in the rise in the numbers and all the services since these war started. -- theseç wars started, to get toç a point where we canç pret this and understand it. does not appear toç be any scientific correlation between the number oft( deployments and those who are at risk, but i am

hard pressed to believe that is not the case as these deployments continue and our dwell time in the army over the next couple of years will not go down significantly, as we come out of our route and send additional troops in afghanistan, our time and the marine corps, which is another service which has been hard- pressed by deployments, will increase over the course of the next year or so to get to a point of about twice as long at home as you are deployed. we think that is a significant mark. and thenç sustaining that over time. we think that we leave a lot of the pressure and the stress. at the same time, we knowçç we have got to continue in these missions, and we have got to

focus on their members and their families to address this issue and other issues. what you're doing this week is really, really important. i was talking to general sudden walking in. -- general sutton walking in. the problems identified in suicide are being widely discussed, and i go back--

in the very near future. as i talk with uniform leadership about this, the yube form leaders are attacking this and from the leadership perspective. the n.c.o.'s in the case of the marine corps, really focusing on the n.c.o.'s and when i was in camp lejeune not too long ago, i was really struck by the

commander's comment that the n.c.o.'s had started to not just get into it, but have an impact and numbers of events, numbers of suicides, that were taking place were reduced over the previous few months that that had occurred. i don't know how else to get at this except leadership and figure out who is at risk, understand it, train to it, back to this study, i was also struck, these were five of the leading individuals in our country on suicide from east coast to west coast who were leading this and i was also struck at how from their perspective, how little national attention is paid to this issue, in the tens of thousands of suicides every year, it doesn't generate the kind of interest and effort to get at the causes across the board in america.

and so this study is really part of what i would call, is really a land mark study and -- upon which we are greatly dependent. these experts explain that they really haven't been able to do anything like this in the past. i'm encouraged by that as well. like so many things we're trying to solve these very difficult problems, while we're in two conflicts, we're try to release the pressure, build resilience, understand how we identify at-risk people and then extend the web. deb will make a comment shortly, we also find it extending into families and into children and so how do you extend the web? how do we know as an institution? we don't track suicides longer than 120 days after somebody's e.t.s.

so how do we really know what's happened to those who have served so well, who aren't necessarily connected to the v.a.? so our tracking mechanisms need to improve. we need to understand very early who the at-risk individuals are and it's oftentimes squad leaders and family members who know it. best friends who know that. who see the symptoms, the earliest, who can look them in the eye or who can reach out and throw a life ring of help toward someone who can help intervene in this very difficult area. so i know there's an awful lot of leadership attention given focus to this and we focused a great deal on the army. general chandler is here, who is the vice, the number two officer in the united states air force, and as i look at the numbers for each service, the numbers have gone up, the rate has gone up, per capita, at about the same rate over the

last four or five years for every service. this isn't just a ground force problem. and it's a growing problem that we as leaders have to commit to and then you in your fields of expertise have to figure out how to get it to us so we can actually do something with it from an institution standpoint, so we understand what causes it as best we can and then make those kinds of changes. i just want to re-emphasize my commitment, debra's commitment, and the leadership and the senior family leadership commitment to getting at this problem. >> good morning. i really was -- i was asked if i wanted to say a few words, which i appreciate the opportunity, and i know that a lot of focus, as it should well be, is on our military service members who have been

committing suicides and i think that the marines just in this month alone have already had several suicides so the problem continues. i know that we're also looking how to assist family members who have -- who are survivors, who have had family members commit suicide and i think that's very important but there is another side to this and that's family members who commit suicide. i had a recent meeting with several of the leadership individuals from the marines and the army, and i asked about whether they track family member suicide and the army did say that they did, that they had nine family members last year who had committed suicide. i did not get a response out of the marines, i don't think -- my understanding is that they don't generally track suicides

because they -- it tends to be left to the civilian investigators. often, people don't really want to talk about the fact that someone has committed suicide. so the -- we really may not have our arms around that figure. i asked about the number of suicide attempts by family members and i was stunned when i was told that there are too many to track. so if you have a family and let's say it's a spouse who has attempted suicide and her husband or wife is serving overseas and we're not tracking this, are there children in the home that we are not aware of that we may need to be doing interventions with? i know that if that number is that large just in, this was the army, we really don't have an idea of the scope of the

problem with attempts by spouses in any of the other services. so we don't know how many children out there are at increased risk. also, just the fact of a family who has someone serving down range, if the mother or father has attempted suicide here in the states, this is a crisis. this is a family in crisis. and it's our responsibility, these are our family members, we've got to find a way to track them, i don't know if they're attempting this because this is the only way they feel they can get mental health, emotional health care, we don't really have any answers and i think we need to understand the answers. we know there's a stig in a, -- stigma, spouses tell me all the time that they would like to get mental health assistance, but they really do believe, as

incorrect as this is, but they really do believe that if they seek help that it will have a negative impact on their spouse's military career. we have got -- this stigma is not just for the service member getting help. recently there was a spouse who -- i think it's been finalized that she did commit suicide. when i was reading about this, it was they believed it was suicide in germany. one of the thingsxd that the spouses talk about was, there is no prevention --ñr training for suicide prevention for spouses. it's focus -- there is suicide train bug in the military, the focus son the service member. i think we need to start to recognize we have families under such great stress, the stress is only going to continue as we send these 30,000 troops in. we need to be able to give tools to family members who are

left behind to recognize not only in them -- in themselves but in another spouse or a friend what -- not just the usual, i'm feeling depressed or i'm down, we know that they feel this way, but how do we -- how do we maybe go a little step further by providing training for these spouses to really understand what they should be looking for in another spouse or in a family member. the other issue i just wanted to talk about was, when off spouse living with someone, a service member who has had -- who has ptsd from a combat experience, these spouses suffer from anxiety and depression and suicide -- suicidal ideaation and one of the big problems is, and psychologists and psychiatrists say, these folks need to see someone, but this barrier to

care, whether it's an inside barrier to care that they're afraid to go or they think the stigma is there or they think it will have a negative impact or the barrier to care because they can't get help, i think is something that we really need to address. i know i talked to bonnie carroll about if we had a family member that felt someone in the family, either the service member or a child or even themselves was contemplating or they thought was looking at -- looked like maybe there was a suicidal situation that might happen, you know, bonnie's organization , taps, is so -- has such a sected -- connected web across our country with first responders that if we can use that resource, someone can call taps and taps can actually talk to them and have a first responder present very quickly. those kinds of resources we

need to get to our families. it's not just about families of the fallen, which is what taps does so beautifully, but it's also, they have the resources to help people that are really struggling with the fact that there may be someone in their family that they are suspecting is suicidal. so i appreciate the opportunity to just talk a little bit about the families and hope that that's something you will lookñ at as you work through these really challenging problems. we do have family members that we need to be aware of, we need to be able to find out, need to get our arms around the problem that we're facing through this number of suicide attempts and actual suicides and the impact on the families. so thank you very much. [applause] >> let me just close with a couple of thoughts. first of all, deborah mentioned

the ptsd issue, the stigma issue, those are things that have been out there we know how difficult they are, we're not breaking through them quickly enough. i don't know what the right answer is. i have actually particularly on the stigma issue and the how do i reach for help, but i have a real sense that we've got to create a much broader network of anonymous help that is effective. so that individuals have a way to seek help, get help, and not be consumed by this thought that it's either my rear o-- my career or my spouse's career i'm putting in jeopardy, until we break through it. and i'm not saying that's the answer. i just think that that -- we've seen some success with that, and i think we need to broaden that as rapidly as possible. there is a part of the sea of good will in this country, there are individuals out there

who want to help those who are in the military and their families. we ought -- until that is -- that well is dry, we should be figuring out ways to tap it. innovative ways to tap it. and then last -- lastly, in terms of suicide, specifically, when i lost oneñi of my crew members in command when i was a navy captain, what i didn't really understand, and it was at a time of real tension in our deployment cycle, in our readiness cycle, etc., what i didn't understand was the pebble in the quiet water that a suicide was and how far those circles radiate. how far they reach. and i, as a line leader, wanted to solve this as rapidly as i could. but i couldn't do it alone. i didn't really know that, i'm

not necessarily geared to thinking there are problems i can't solve when i'm in command, but i couldn't. and it wasn't until in the navy there are is something called a sprint team that is available in the major hospitals. and it's a 24/7 available -- 24/7 team that's available with bags packed to respond to a crisis. and it's a group of psychiatrists, psychologists, mental health professionals and they're on their way immediately. it wasn't until i got them on the ship and i had a crew of about 400 troops, that they understood the pebble in the quiet water piece and they reached to places and to families that i wouldn't even have thought that were affected by this suicide. and these were friends, liberty buddies, families of families. family friends of family

friends kinds of things. and i would hope that again, until we see relief here, that we are focused on this as the crisis that it is and have the kind of response that was very supportive of me, many years ago, and allowed me quite frankly as a commander to work my way through these issues much more rapidly because of that assistance and then get on with the mission. the last thing i'll say, even though i've said that a couple of times, the last thing i'll say and it is really the evolution of who we are and it ties back to families, but it's the readiness piece, literally, from the day you join any of the services. and if you join with a family, it's how ready is that family for this experience. and we have a tendency to cycle

that, to get you ready before you deploy. and i would argue that with where we are right now, that we have to have a continuum of readiness that starts to educate families from day one and i wouldn't even just say spouses. i'm talking about moms and dads as well. about the challenges that lie ahead, the information that is available, the networks that are out there in these challenging times so that when we -- so we hopefully can avoid crises, but then when we get in them, as we are right now in this suicide area, we know who to to the reach for and we know how to get help. these young family members, these young soldiers, sailors, airmen, marines, coast guardsmen, they have a lifeline and they also have leadership that's supportive of throwing